cc: "Mcgarvie Michael Mr \(ACAD\)" <M.Mcgarvie@uea.ac.uk>
date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:36:27 +0100
from: "Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\)" <David.Palmer@uea.ac.uk>
subject: RE: RE: Freedom of Information Request
to: "Jones Philip Prof \(ENV\)" <P.Jones@uea.ac.uk>

   Gents,

   Just got off the phone with Marion Archer.  It appears that they will be dealing with their
   request under EIR.  There are 2 key issues for them: (1) the terms under which Phil
   supplied this information to them (and of course any evidence of such terms) - I believe
   John Kennedy will be leading on this for them, and (2) the public interest test required
   regarding release.



   In regards the latter, the terms under which Phil received this information could be
   critical (and any evidence thereof).  The question is the public interest in disclosure v.
   the public interest in non-disclosure.  The existence of contracts. terms or agreements
   under which we received the data (and then passed it on to Hadley) would be proof a some
   public interest in non-disclosure (sanctity of contracts, free exchange of scientific
   information etc...).



   The request was received by Hadley this week so we are looking at an early June deadline.
   If we do not wish this information/data to be released, it is in our interest to bolster
   the public interest argument in favour of non-disclosure to the greatest extent possible.
   Phil - any further information available on what terms were imposed on you when you
   received and subsequently passed on this data?



   Cheers, Dave
     ______________________________________________________________________________________

   From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:22 PM
   To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
   Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD)
   Subject: RE: RE: Freedom of Information Request

      Dave,
        Thanks!  Apologies for being your best customer!
      Phil
     At 15:17 13/05/2009, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote:

     Phil,
     Thanks for passing all this correspondence to me.  A few comments:

     Hadley is under an obligation to respond to the FOIA request of Mr. McIntyre and whether
     they release the requested data or not is completely in their hands.  However, I would
     argue that the EIR is the legislation under which they need to consider this
     information. If that is the route that they go, Regulation 12(5)(f) is the salient one:

     12. - (1) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (9), a public authority may refuse to
     disclose environmental information requested if -
     (a) an exception to disclosure applies under paragraphs (4) or (5); and
     (b) in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the
     exception outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information.
     (5) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), a public authority may refuse to disclose
     information to the extent that its disclosure would adversely affect -
     (f) the interests of the person who provided the information where that person -
         (i) was not under, and could not have been put under, any legal obligation to supply
     it to that or any other public authority;
         (ii) did not supply it in circumstances such that that or any other public authority
     is entitled apart from these Regulations to disclose it; and
         (iii) has not consented to its disclosure; or
     Please note - there is a public interest test here that has to be addressed by Hadley as
     well.

     Bottom line - it is Hadley's call on releasing the information - all we can do is
     register our concern over the release of the information.

     We didn't actually deny Mr. McIntyre the information in 2007 - we stated we didn't
     actually HAVE what he was requesting.  The actual text of my letter of 19 April 2007
     states:

     "In your email of 17 April 2007, you re-iterated your request from your email of 12
     March 2007, to see <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
     "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

     "B) identification ... of the stations used in the gridded network which was used as a
     comparandum in this study"
     I have been in conversation with Dr. Jones and have been advised that, in fact, we are
     unable to answer (B) as we do not have a copy of the station data as we had it in 1990.
     The station database has evolved since that time and CRU was not able to keep versions
     of it as stations were added, amended and deleted.  This was a consequence of a lack of
     data storage comparable to what we have at our disposal currently.
     I have been advised that the best equivalent data available is within the current
     version  of CRUTEM3(v) or CRUTEM2(v). The latter is still available on the CRU web site,
     though not updated beyond 2005.
     These latest versions are likely different from what was used in 1990. <?xml:namespace
     prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Australia and China
     have both released more data since then - it is likely that much of this was not
     digitized in 1990. Dr. Jones acknowledges that the grid resolution is now different, but
     this is again due to greater disk storage available.
     The details of our updating of the raw station data is discussed in the following
     article:
     Jones, P.D. and Moberg, A., 2003: Hemispheric and large-scale surface air temperature
     variations: An extensive revision and an update to 2001. J. Climate 16, 206-223.
     This is, in effect, our final attempt to resolve this matter informally. If this
     response is not to your satisfaction, I will initiate the second stage of our internal
     complaint process and will advise you of progress and outcome as appropriate."
     There was no response to this letter.  For your information, I have attached to this
     memo the initial request, our answer, the appeal & our initial and subsequent appeal
     response.

     I think I will need to have a quick chat with Marion Archer at Hadley to see what
     approach they are taking on this...

     Cheers, Dave


         _______________________________________________________________________________

          From: Phil Jones [[1] mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk]
          Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:48 PM
          To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)
          Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD)
          Subject: Fwd: RE: Freedom of Information Request
           Dave,
              Nothing came over night. This email came a few minutes ago. It also includes
           my response - just to a few colleagues at the Hadley Centre. I've not sent
           anything to their FOI people, but you can see their names (if you didn't
           know them already) further down.
               The crux of the issue is their statement on their web site.
            [2]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html
           within this page is this piece of text.

  Q. Where can I get the raw observations?

          A. The raw sea-surface temperature observations used to create [3]HadSST2 are taken
          from ICOADS (International Comprehensive Ocean Atmosphere Data Set). These can be
          found at [4]http://icoads.noaa.gov/. To obtain the archive of raw land surface
          temperature observations used to create [5]CRUTEM3, you will need to contact Phil
          Jones at the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia. Recently
          archived station reports used to update CRUTEM3 and HadCRUT3 are available from the
          CRUTEM3 [6]data download page.
           So they say people need to contact me, but they seem to want to release the data
          anyway.
           They are probably going through the processes they have to. Is it worth me or you
           contacting their FOI person (Marion Archer). If they release the data it would seem
           to make us look very silly.
           As an aside, I do get contacted and I do send some stations to some people -
           mainly students from developing countries who are here doing PhDs in the UK and
          Europe.
           Cheers
           Phil

          Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:24:25 +0100
          To: "peter.thorne" <peter.thorne@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Parker, David"
          <david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk>
          From: Phil Jones <p.jones@uea.ac.uk>
          Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
          Cc: "Kennedy, John" <john.kennedy@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Brohan, Philip"
          <philip.brohan@metoffice.gov.uk>, Simon Tett <simon.tett@ed.ac.uk>, "Livingston,
          Linda" <linda.livingston@metoffice.gov.uk>
           Dear All,
              There are several issues you should be aware of:
           1. UEA has denied access to the data to McIntyre (and at least two
           others in the past) - in 2007. One of the three appealed and that appeal was
          rejected.
           We would look stupid if you released the data now. I can put your FOI person
           in touch with the one at UEA. I think they already know each other!
           We put up this page at the time
            [7]http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/landstations/
           So they have a list of which stations are used.
           2. I have signed agreements with some Met Services (European ones) in the 1990s
           that I would not pass on their data to third parties. The data could be used in the
           gridding though and gridded products made available. I never kept a list of which
          stations
           these were though, as I never thought such problems would arise.
           3.  Work on the land station data has been funded by the US Dept of Energy, and I
           have their agreement that the data needn't be passed on.  I got this in 2007.
           4. You web site says that anyone requesting the data should apply to me, so tell
          him
           that's what they should do.  I think you should remove this sentence, by the way.
          It is
           this that has opened up the issue again.
           5. The data aren't yours to release! Maybe there is no formal IPR agreement, but
          there
           is an implicit one.
           6. We've altered the version that you have anyway. We're also in the process of
          doing
           more of this.
           7. You'd need to waste your time combining the two parts of the data and removing
           the stations that don't get used.
           Cheers
           Phil

          At 11:53 13/05/2009, peter.thorne wrote:

          Sorry. I should also have copied Phil in my previous. Apologies for
          filling inboxes.
          On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 11:50 +0100, Parker, David wrote:
          > Peter
          >
          > Thanks for responding to this. I have looked in my "Collaboration with
          > CRU" folder but found nothing that specifically addresses IPR of data.
          >
          > David
          >
          > David Parker, Climate Research scientist
          > Met Office Hadley Centre  FitzRoy Road  Exeter  Devon  EX1 3PB  United
          > Kingdom
          > Tel: +44 (0)1392 886649  Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681
          > Email: david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk
          > Website: [8]www.metoffice.gov.uk
          >
          > See our guide to climate change at
          > [9]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research)
          > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:43 AM
          > To: Kennedy, John
          > Cc: Brohan, Philip; Parker, David; Simon Tett; Livingston, Linda
          > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
          >
          > Yes, we do. I guess Linda will know where it is. Simon Tett undertook
          > it. cc'ing Simon and Linda here to provide direction to necessary
          > paperwork.
          >
          > On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 10:54 +0100, Kennedy, John wrote:
          > > Dear all,
          > >
          > > The FOI request from Mr McIntyre has arrived. Do we have a formal
          > > agreement with Phil Jones that says what we can and can't do with his
          > > data?
          > >
          > > John
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________________________
          > > From: Archer, Marion
          > > Sent: 13 May 2009 10:32
          > > To: Carroll, Fiona; Kennedy, John
          > > Cc: Mathews, Stuart (Legal)
          > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Fiona/John
          > >
          > > Thank you for your emails.   As Mr McIntyre has raised this request
          > > for information and  the Met Office hold the information for whatever
          > > reason, we still need to consider releasing it.   We will need to do a
          > > public interest test on the pros and cons for release, for which I
          > > will need your input.
          > >
          > > Can you let me know why we are unable to release the information?
          > > Was the information given in confidence to the Met Office?   Do you
          > > have any documentation from Phil Jones regarding this?   We need to
          > > show we are considering both sides of the argument for release as Mr
          > > McIntyre may go to the Information Commissioner and if we cannot show
          > > a fair and open public interest test has been undertaken, they may
          > > find in his favour.
          > >
          > > If you wish to meet to discuss, please let me know.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Marion
          > >
          > > Marion Archer
          > > FOI/Data Protection Manager
          > > Met Office Alexandria 1
          > > Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom
          > > Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050
          > > email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk
          > > [10]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk
          > >
          > > See our guide to climate change at
          > > [11]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________________________
          > > From: Carroll, Fiona
          > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:46
          > > To: Archer, Marion
          > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Marion,
          > > The customer has already been in touch with John Kennedy who explained
          > > to him that the data set requested does not belong to the Met Office,
          > > and therefore we do not have permission to pass it on. The data set is
          > > held by Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia, and the customer
          > > should make a direct request to him. Below is John's response to the
          > > original request.
          > > Fiona
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________________________
          > > From: Kennedy, John
          > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:00
          > > To: Carroll, Fiona
          > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > >
          > > Fiona,
          > >
          > > I wondered when this would arrive. Mr McIntyre, a noted climate
          > > sceptic, is documenting all of this on his blog:
          > >
          > > [12]http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5962
          > >
          > > The "archive of raw land surface temperature observations used to
          > > create CRUTEM3" is not ours to give away. The basic archive of
          > > observations was put together by Phil Jones at the Climatic Research
          > > Unit at the University of East Anglia. We collaborate with Phil so he
          > > sent us the data with the proviso (as I understand it) that we should
          > > only use it to create the gridded data set CRUTEM3. We are not to pass
          > > it on to other people. It says as much on the web page that Stephen
          > > McIntyre refers to.
          > >
          > > [13]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html
          > >
          > > What we can provide are the data that we gather and quality control on
          > > a monthly basis.
          > >
          > > [14]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/
          > >
          > > Stephen McIntyre has already contacted me by email asking for the data
          > > that he is now pursuing with this FOI request. I told him that we
          > > couldn't give him the full archive and that he should contact its
          > > owner, Phil Jones. I also told him where to find the data he could
          > > have. This is what I said:
          > >
          > > Dear Stephen McIntyre,
          > >
          > > Thank you for your interest in our datasets.
          > >
          > > Some of the data is available from the website. Each month we receive
          > > CLIMAT reports at the Met Office, which are quality controlled, and
          > > used
          > > to update the gridded CRUTEM3 dataset. The quality controlled CLIMAT
          > > station data for recent years can be found here:
          > >
          > > [15]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/
          > >
          > > However, this is not all the station data used in CRUTEM3. Most of the
          > > station data was given to us by Phil Jones under conditions that don't
          > > allow us to redistribute it. If you want the full archive, you will
          > > have
          > > to contact him.
          > >
          > > Best regards,
          > >
          > > John
          > >
          > > John
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________________________
          > > From: Carroll, Fiona
          > > Sent: 12 May 2009 15:27
          > > To: Kennedy, John
          > > Cc: Archer, Marion
          > > Subject: FW: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > John,
          > > Please could you assist marion with this FOI request.
          > > Many thanks.
          > > Fiona
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________________________
          > > From: Marion Archer [ [16]mailto:enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk]
          > > Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47
          > > To: Carroll, Fiona
          > > Subject: FWD: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > >
          > > Fiona
          > >
          > > Please see email below and can you let me know who the best person
          > > would be to send it to please.
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Marion
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----------------------- Forwarded Message -----------------------
          > >
          > > From: Steve McIntyre <stephen.mcintyre@utoronto.ca>
          > > To: "<enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk>"
          > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:27:00 +0100
          > > Subject: Freedom of Information Request
          > >
          > > Dear Sirs,
          > > I request the "archive of raw land surface temperature observations
          > > used to create CRUTEM3" as held by the Hadley Center (referred to on
          > > your webpage [17]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html ) under
          > > the FOI Act or other applicable legislation.
          > >
          > > Thank you for your attention, Stephen McIntyre
          --
          Peter Thorne   Climate Research Scientist
          Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB
          tel. +44 1392 886552 fax +44 1392 885681
          [18]www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs
          Prof. Phil Jones
          Climatic Research Unit        Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
          School of Environmental Sciences    Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
          University of East Anglia
          Norwich                          Email    p.jones@uea.ac.uk
          NR4 7TJ
          UK
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Prof. Phil Jones
          Climatic Research Unit        Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
          School of Environmental Sciences    Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
          University of East Anglia
          Norwich                          Email    p.jones@uea.ac.uk
          NR4 7TJ
          UK
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

     Prof. Phil Jones
     Climatic Research Unit        Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
     School of Environmental Sciences    Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
     University of East Anglia
     Norwich                          Email    p.jones@uea.ac.uk
     NR4 7TJ
     UK
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

