cc: "peter.thorne" <peter.thorne@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Parker, David" <david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Kennedy, John" <john.kennedy@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Brohan, Philip" <philip.brohan@metoffice.gov.uk>
date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:57:14 +0100
from: Simon Tett <simon.tett@ed.ac.uk>
subject: Re: Freedom of Information Request
to: Phil Jones <p.jones@uea.ac.uk>

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All,
   as it is likely that Phil "owns" the dataset can he not request that 
the MO deletes it... and in fact should you have done so given that the 
data was for a specific purpose.

S

Phil Jones wrote:
>  Simon,
>    Nice one!  Well  written Philip!
> 
>  I've forwarded one of the earlier emails to our FOI person here.
> 
>  Cheers
>  Phil
> 
> At 12:46 13/05/2009, Simon Tett wrote:
>> I've got some of my old met office email -- back to early 2004. We are 
>> talking about error models then so I think discussions about station 
>> level records would have taken place in 2003. My recall is that we 
>> agreed with Phil that the gridded product was jointly owned and that 
>> he owned the station level records. The web site 
>> (http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/) seems to 
>> reflect this view.
>>
>> I think when I left the met office I deleted all my email prior to 
>> 2004 so can't find a record of the email. It may well be associated 
>> with the sub-contract to CRU to work on CRUTEM3 which I think was done 
>> in 2002/2003.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Phil Jones wrote:
>>>  Dear All,
>>>     There are several issues you should be aware of:
>>>  1. UEA has denied access to the data to McIntyre (and at least two
>>>  others in the past) - in 2007. One of the three appealed and that 
>>> appeal was rejected.
>>>  We would look stupid if you released the data now. I can put your 
>>> FOI person
>>>  in touch with the one at UEA. I think they already know each other!
>>>  We put up this page at the time
>>>  http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/landstations/
>>>  So they have a list of which stations are used.
>>>  2. I have signed agreements with some Met Services (European ones) 
>>> in the 1990s
>>>  that I would not pass on their data to third parties. The data could 
>>> be used in the
>>>  gridding though and gridded products made available. I never kept a 
>>> list of which stations
>>>  these were though, as I never thought such problems would arise.
>>>  3.  Work on the land station data has been funded by the US Dept of 
>>> Energy, and I
>>>  have their agreement that the data needn't be passed on.  I got this 
>>> in 2007.
>>>  4. You web site says that anyone requesting the data should apply to 
>>> me, so tell him
>>>  that's what they should do.  I think you should remove this 
>>> sentence, by the way. It is
>>>  this that has opened up the issue again.
>>>  5. The data aren't yours to release! Maybe there is no formal IPR 
>>> agreement, but there
>>>  is an implicit one.
>>>  6. We've altered the version that you have anyway. We're also in the 
>>> process of doing
>>>  more of this.
>>>  7. You'd need to waste your time combining the two parts of the data 
>>> and removing
>>>  the stations that don't get used.
>>>  Cheers
>>>  Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> At 11:53 13/05/2009, peter.thorne wrote:
>>>> Sorry. I should also have copied Phil in my previous. Apologies for
>>>> filling inboxes.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 11:50 +0100, Parker, David wrote:
>>>> > Peter
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for responding to this. I have looked in my "Collaboration 
>>>> with
>>>> > CRU" folder but found nothing that specifically addresses IPR of 
>>>> data.
>>>> >
>>>> > David
>>>> >
>>>> > David Parker, Climate Research scientist
>>>> > Met Office Hadley Centre  FitzRoy Road  Exeter  Devon  EX1 3PB  
>>>> United
>>>> > Kingdom
>>>> > Tel: +44 (0)1392 886649  Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681
>>>> > Email: david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk
>>>> > Website: www.metoffice.gov.uk
>>>> >
>>>> > See our guide to climate change at
>>>> > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research)
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:43 AM
>>>> > To: Kennedy, John
>>>> > Cc: Brohan, Philip; Parker, David; Simon Tett; Livingston, Linda
>>>> > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, we do. I guess Linda will know where it is. Simon Tett undertook
>>>> > it. cc'ing Simon and Linda here to provide direction to necessary
>>>> > paperwork.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 10:54 +0100, Kennedy, John wrote:
>>>> > > Dear all,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > The FOI request from Mr McIntyre has arrived. Do we have a formal
>>>> > > agreement with Phil Jones that says what we can and can't do 
>>>> with his
>>>> > > data?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > John
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > From: Archer, Marion
>>>> > > Sent: 13 May 2009 10:32
>>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona; Kennedy, John
>>>> > > Cc: Mathews, Stuart (Legal)
>>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Hi Fiona/John
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thank you for your emails.   As Mr McIntyre has raised this request
>>>> > > for information and  the Met Office hold the information for 
>>>> whatever
>>>> > > reason, we still need to consider releasing it.   We will need 
>>>> to do a
>>>> > > public interest test on the pros and cons for release, for which I
>>>> > > will need your input.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Can you let me know why we are unable to release the information?
>>>> > > Was the information given in confidence to the Met Office?   Do you
>>>> > > have any documentation from Phil Jones regarding this?   We need to
>>>> > > show we are considering both sides of the argument for release 
>>>> as Mr
>>>> > > McIntyre may go to the Information Commissioner and if we cannot 
>>>> show
>>>> > > a fair and open public interest test has been undertaken, they may
>>>> > > find in his favour.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > If you wish to meet to discuss, please let me know.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Regards
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Marion
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Marion Archer
>>>> > > FOI/Data Protection Manager
>>>> > > Met Office Alexandria 1
>>>> > > Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom
>>>> > > Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050
>>>> > > email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk
>>>> > > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk
>>>> > >
>>>> > > See our guide to climate change at
>>>> > > http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > From: Carroll, Fiona
>>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:46
>>>> > > To: Archer, Marion
>>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Dear Marion,
>>>> > > The customer has already been in touch with John Kennedy who 
>>>> explained
>>>> > > to him that the data set requested does not belong to the Met 
>>>> Office,
>>>> > > and therefore we do not have permission to pass it on. The data 
>>>> set is
>>>> > > held by Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia, and the 
>>>> customer
>>>> > > should make a direct request to him. Below is John's response to 
>>>> the
>>>> > > original request.
>>>> > > Fiona
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > From: Kennedy, John
>>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:00
>>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona
>>>> > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Fiona,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > I wondered when this would arrive. Mr McIntyre, a noted climate
>>>> > > sceptic, is documenting all of this on his blog:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5962
>>>> > >
>>>> > > The "archive of raw land surface temperature observations used to
>>>> > > create CRUTEM3" is not ours to give away. The basic archive of
>>>> > > observations was put together by Phil Jones at the Climatic 
>>>> Research
>>>> > > Unit at the University of East Anglia. We collaborate with Phil 
>>>> so he
>>>> > > sent us the data with the proviso (as I understand it) that we 
>>>> should
>>>> > > only use it to create the gridded data set CRUTEM3. We are not 
>>>> to pass
>>>> > > it on to other people. It says as much on the web page that Stephen
>>>> > > McIntyre refers to.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html
>>>> > >
>>>> > > What we can provide are the data that we gather and quality 
>>>> control on
>>>> > > a monthly basis.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Stephen McIntyre has already contacted me by email asking for 
>>>> the data
>>>> > > that he is now pursuing with this FOI request. I told him that we
>>>> > > couldn't give him the full archive and that he should contact its
>>>> > > owner, Phil Jones. I also told him where to find the data he could
>>>> > > have. This is what I said:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Dear Stephen McIntyre,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thank you for your interest in our datasets.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Some of the data is available from the website. Each month we 
>>>> receive
>>>> > > CLIMAT reports at the Met Office, which are quality controlled, and
>>>> > > used
>>>> > > to update the gridded CRUTEM3 dataset. The quality controlled 
>>>> CLIMAT
>>>> > > station data for recent years can be found here:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/
>>>> > >
>>>> > > However, this is not all the station data used in CRUTEM3. Most 
>>>> of the
>>>> > > station data was given to us by Phil Jones under conditions that 
>>>> don't
>>>> > > allow us to redistribute it. If you want the full archive, you will
>>>> > > have
>>>> > > to contact him.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Best regards,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > John
>>>> > >
>>>> > > John
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > From: Carroll, Fiona
>>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 15:27
>>>> > > To: Kennedy, John
>>>> > > Cc: Archer, Marion
>>>> > > Subject: FW: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > John,
>>>> > > Please could you assist marion with this FOI request.
>>>> > > Many thanks.
>>>> > > Fiona
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > 
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>> > > From: Marion Archer [mailto:enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk]
>>>> > > Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47
>>>> > > To: Carroll, Fiona
>>>> > > Subject: FWD: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Fiona
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Please see email below and can you let me know who the best person
>>>> > > would be to send it to please.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Regards
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Marion
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > ----------------------- Forwarded Message -----------------------
>>>> > >
>>>> > > From: Steve McIntyre <stephen.mcintyre@utoronto.ca>
>>>> > > To: "<enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk>"
>>>> > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:27:00 +0100
>>>> > > Subject: Freedom of Information Request
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Dear Sirs,
>>>> > > I request the "archive of raw land surface temperature observations
>>>> > > used to create CRUTEM3" as held by the Hadley Center (referred 
>>>> to on
>>>> > > your webpage http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html ) 
>>>> under
>>>> > > the FOI Act or other applicable legislation.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thank you for your attention, Stephen McIntyre
>>>> -- 
>>>> Peter Thorne   Climate Research Scientist
>>>> Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB
>>>> tel. +44 1392 886552 fax +44 1392 885681
>>>> www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs
>>> Prof. Phil Jones
>>> Climatic Research Unit        Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
>>> School of Environmental Sciences    Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
>>> University of East Anglia
>>> Norwich                          Email    p.jones@uea.ac.uk
>>> NR4 7TJ
>>> UK 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Simon Tett
>> Chair of Earth System Dynamics
>> School of Geosciences
>> The University of Edinburgh
>> Tel:+44-(0)131-650-5341
>> Fax: +44 (0)131 668 3184
>> email:simon.tett@ed.ac.uk
>> Room 351, Grant Institute,
>> The King's Buildings,
>> West Mains Road, Edinburgh EH9 3JW
>> UK
>> http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/people/person.html?indv=1592
>>
>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
> 
> Prof. Phil Jones
> Climatic Research Unit        Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
> School of Environmental Sciences    Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
> University of East Anglia
> Norwich                          Email    p.jones@uea.ac.uk
> NR4 7TJ
> UK 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------                                                                                 
> 
> 

-- 
Simon Tett
Chair of Earth System Dynamics
School of Geosciences
The University of Edinburgh
Tel:+44-(0)131-650-5341
Fax: +44 (0)131 668 3184
email:simon.tett@ed.ac.uk
Room 351, Grant Institute,
The King's Buildings,
West Mains Road, Edinburgh EH9 3JW
UK
http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/people/person.html?indv=1592

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

</x-flowed>
